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Hello Slatka,

I saw your post over on ttc after m/c and then this one. I thought I would respond here.

I too have had those twinges and cramps. It is so hard to tell exactly what it is. Since my last mc I have been so tuned in to my body. I know exactly what is going on and don't miss a "difference."

From my experience I have had twinges and cramps around days 5-6 on a cylce I did not conceive and I had them on a cylce I did conceive. Sorry I know that dosen't help. I also have been having the twinges and cramps this month, but they are different. I can't exactly explain it, it is just difference and has lasted a lot longer. I am still having it and it is 10 dpo today. It dosen't feel like af cramps and twinges so far. I feel it more down low, I would say in my uterus. I also get them on both sides, but that has subsided this month. I don't know what to think either.

From a medical standpoint I know that it is usually approx 4-5 dpo that the egg makes its way to the uterus. I have not read anything medically stating that may cause these twinges and cramps, but I do think it could. Our bodies are all different and we are all different. My re always tells me how she is amazed at home tuned into my body I am. For instance I know when my estodiol drops in the 2nd half of my cycle. Last week when I had bw at 4 dpo she called with with the results and I already knew I told her my estrdiol dropped didn't it? I was right, it was 102 down from 438 on day14. I ended up having to do 2 booster shots to "wake up" my overies. It worked, my estodiol has been up since Friday and hasen't seemed to have gone down.

Are you normally a 28 day cycle?

I am sorry to hear about your gyn not wanting to refer you to the fertility specialist. I can feel your frustration. I am very much of a control freak. (usually not people, just things. I think you know what I mean) I want to control what is happening with me and I can't. At times I feel so helpless. After my Dec. m/c I wanted everything now, I wanted results now, I wanted answers now and of course it dosen't happen that way. Some of the tests we had done took weeks to get the results (genetic testing for example). I thought I would go out of my mind. I did make and so will you. No matter how hard it is try to relax and be patient. I know it is hard and trust me I have been where you are. You will get through it and you will be twice as strong as you are today. Trust me on this one.

I had an hsg in March. They said my tubes looked great, but I had an abnormal shape in my uterus. I was devestated. I went for yet another test and the doc said I looked fine. Here when they did the hsg they must have been a little off center with the camera and it looked like I had an abnormal shaped uterus. I was over joyed, also frustrated because I wasted a month with waiting for the second test.

I am telling you all this because I want you to know you are not alone. No matter what is happening with your body you will be fine and tomorrow is always another day, maybe even a better day.

Take care, Slatka
(((((((((((((((((((((hugs
)))))))))))))))))))))))))

Li
z

Hi Liz -- What would I do without you?! Thank you for your insight on this...these cramps are mild and down low, sort of in the V of my pubic bone. I've had these before, too, just like you: occasionally pre-period when I did not conceive, and when I did. So hard to read!

I know the best answer is, frankly, to ignore it -- whatever it is, I cannot change it by worrying. I just get overwhelmed by those shadows that tell me something is wrong, or, rather, that nothing has happened in the way of conception.

I've read about this, too, but find just what you say for the most part: lots of women feel like af is definitely coming, then find out they are pregnant; lots of women feel absolutely nothing, then find out they are pregnant. WHen I got pregnant, I felt like af ws coming early, then I had light brown spotting for a day (this was about 6-7 days before my period was due), which then went away. I know now that was implantation spotting but at the time, I thought, oh, well, another cycle come and gone. I totally had no idea I was pregnant till I took the test the next week.

It's scary how doctors can be wrong or misinterpret testing, but you are my model: you have to be aggressive about your health. It's tough, I feel powerless because we have very little money (and I have my Masters in Literature -- teaching is soooo lucrative -- not!), and no one (i've seen 2 OB/GYNs and one very great NP in OB) seems to believe there's anything wrong.

By the way, I have a 30-31 day cycle. Sometimes 28, but that's rare.

I hope to god you are feeling a real, significant difference this month and that means that something is going on in there! I know you started Repronex and are dealing with the lovely progest. suppositories, and that may be the "new feelings" you are having, but then again, perhaps not. As you say, it's difficult to tell. I'm off work for the summer, so I have too much time to obsess, and this is bad, bad, bad!

Thank you so much for your words of support. I will slog through it, as I always do; thank god for my husband: if I had to do this whole ttc and m./c thing over just to be with him, I would. He is so convinced we will make it through that it sustains me; and you and others on this forum are as well, and that sustains me, too.

Well, dust off your hiking boots and put the tent in the car -- almost time to leave for your camping trip!

Thank you and the best to you -- Slatka
(Slatka means Sweetie in Croatian; my husband is Croatian)

Hi Slatka (sweetie, thats cool!)

You definatly are describing the same kind of cramps I have been having. Maybe this is a good sign. Mine were on and off from cd 5 or so on, now today they are constant. I would't say it hurts, just different.

It is so hard to ignore what these things when we want so much to see anything as a sign of possible conception. All 3 times I was pg I never had the implantation spotting, so needless to say all 3 were surprises. I find myself everytime I go to the bathroom hoping to see spotting, atleast it would give me some more hope. I am sure you know what I mean.

I was never agressive, I was very passive, often times never really speaking my mind. Overcoming the depression brought some of it out of me. I am fortunate to be able to get things out, sometimes it is not always a good thing, but atleast I don't keep it inside until I burst anymore. I will share with you how I came to be so aggressive about my health and this journey. When I was pg this last time I began spotting on a Sun. first I called my husband and he told me to take it easy with all the stress of my Nana's surgery and my GreatGrandmother having a stroke he thought the stress was getting to me. I did, I laid down to relax. Soon my Dad called to ask me something and I told him what was happening. He told me to call my doc and I did. I left a message with the answering service, an hour went by and no call back, so now my husband called (he came home) a doc finally called me back and was extremely rude to me. She said well it could be you are miscarrying, I asked if it could possibly be normal in any way, she kept saying it could be a miscarriage. I had little hope. She told me call in the morning if I was still spotting. I spent the rest of the night relaxing and enjoying hubby's catering to me. At 5 am I woke up and the bleeding was really bad, dh said we are going to the emergency room. I could barely walk the pain was so bad. We got to the er at 5:30, no-one was there and I still waited for 45 min to be seen. Finally they took me back to a room and started with bw. A doc came in and tried to listen for the heartbeat and was getting nothing. He said it may have been too early since you usually can't hear it that way for appox 11-12 weeks and I was 2 days short of 11 weeks. There I was laying waiting and waiting. About 3 horus later they took me to have an ultra sound, I knew immediatly there was no heartbeat. God bless the tech she was trying so hard and it just wasen't there. By law she is not aloud to say anything so back to my room I went. Again I waited and waited for a doc to come tell me what was going on (although I already knew). It was another 1 1/2 and my dh became furious, he went to find out what was going on and that we needed to see a doc. Finally a doc came in , it was probably another hour and told me from the ultra sound it appears I miscarried. They sent a women in to talk to me about the d&c. We decided to go that route since we both wanted the fetus tested. She told me I would probably go in for the surgery within an hour. This was approx. 2 in the afternoon. They moved me to another room where I just layed there for hours, they would come in to give me pain killers and that was it. I was hooked up to an iv since I was dehydrated. It was getting later and later and as you can imagine I was a wreck. At one point I started having a reaction to the pain med and started breaking out. We paged the nurse and he came in to tell me that he would need to call the doc and see if they could give me benedryl for the reaction. Talk about horrible, I was having a bad reaction and I had to "wait". By this point my husbad was mad as hell. Finally I managed to take a little nap in dh arms. It was 9:00 and in comes a women with an ultra sound cart. She tells me that she need to do another u/s. What! I went through it hours ago and now you are going to put me through the agony again! Dh was beyond mad at this point, I was just tramatized. My GrandFather (god love him) away from me questiond why they were doing this again and when was I going to be having my surgery. They told him my results from the u/s in the am were "misplaced" and hopefully soon they would be taking me into the or. Misplaced, how can a hospital misplace something like that. My Grandfather explained to them that this was killing me I had been in the hosital since 5:30 am and have had nothing but problems since I got there. Of course they apolized, for what that was worth and offered to give me something to calm my nerves. Finally at about midnight they took me into the or. I was home about 2:30am with no baby.
The whole ordeal was a disaster and from that moment on I took a firm stand in me and my health. When the docs office would't call me back with an answer I kept calling and kept asking until I got the answer. What I was though was more then anyone should ever have to go through. No more will I ever sit back and ride it out. I am too important, my health is too important.

I have had bumpy times since Dec. with my gyn, but since I am with the fertility dept I could not be more impressed. They are wonderful, very compasionate and always answer my questions no matter how dumb they may be.

I think our husbands have been through alot with us and the ttc plus m/c things. My husband is my rock as I am sure yours is yours as well.

I have a couple of questions for you. Do you have any idea as to what went wrong with your m/c? You said your gyn ran lots of tests, did they happen to do a progesterone and estrodiol test of day 23? I just ask because my gyn had not tested the estrodiol only the progerstone. As soon as I went to fertility they did both on day 23 and all of a sudden the problem was found. I had low estrodiol levels on day 23 which indicated a less then perfect ovulation. I always ovulated regulary on day 14-15 so this was a shock to me, low and behold they were right I have a hormonal imbalence with my estrodiol. Just an idea for you. Please don't ever take me as a "miss know it all", I just know what I have been though and if I can help someone else in any way I would be more than happy.

Well, I really wrote a book.
I will talk to you soon,
Keep you head up Slatka, you are going to be fine. We will always pull through.
Liz

PS About Denise she was on the Clomid buddy thread. She got a bfn and is out of the ttc circle until Oct. Her hubby got another job and their new insurance will cover infertility starting in Oct.

Dear Liz --

First, thank you for having the courage to share that traumatizing experience; it made me tear up to think of the pain (physical, yes, but mostly emotional) that experience caused. Of course, having a m/c is never a wonderful experience, but a concerned, caring staff and doc can make a huge difference. I felt like you were ignored, like you were some dumb animal who could be wheeled from place to place, examined in the most intimate way by whoever, and totally disregarded in dignity. My god. NO wonder you have learned from that experience not to be passive and just lay there.

You know, you should write this all down. The words you share on this forum are so helpful and kind to others, don't stop writing them, but I mean actually write these experiences down. Like a personal journal. Maybe to publish someday (I can imagine how heartbreakingly sympathetic other women would find your story, how they would see, perhaps, their experience and journey in your own), maybe just to have a record of that time, and this. What does it mean to a woman to miscarry? What does it feel like to be treated so callously? I am probably getting too philosophical and abstract, but I see a lesson in this.

You know, I knew no one who had had a m/c before I had my own. I had never even dreamed I would -- I would never have thought that I would be on all fours like a dog on my bed, panting and crying with the pain. Never thought I would have to call my OB and wait on the telephone for 20 minutes as I bled away and cramped up, trying to make them understand what was happening. Never thought I would have to wait in the OB waiting room for an emergency appt. to open, watching contented pregnant mothers hold their round bellies while I bled my baby away in the chair. In some ways, we are invisible women, with an invisible problem. Yet, when I was recovering from my m/c other stories crept out: my mother in law had had a m/c at 5 and a half months, my cousin had one, my mom's colleague had 2, my childhood friend had 2 and so on. But no one talks...unless you are unfortunately indoctrinated into the "club." I guess all I am saying is that this is important to remember, record, pass on -- for you, and for others. Whew! I am just so impressed with your strength!

As for me, they didn't do any analysis on the m/c; I passed some in the doc's office, and some in the shower a few days later. This was a first m/c, so they don't generally do any testing; they chalked it up to "this happens" -- probably a chromosomal abnormality that couldn't have survived. They have not done any tests since then (except for watching that the HCG levels went down). In Dec. 2005, my FSH and LH were normal, my progesterone was 14.4 on CD23, which they said was normal. They did my estrogen on CD 4 and it was at 30, which they said was normal, and my thyroid and proactin were normal as well. My cycle is a fairly regular 30-32 day one and I do ovulate. I expect that I will be blood-tested again in August/Sept., though I'm not sure if anything would've changed -- would the m/c fundamentally change my hormones?

I used to have a lot of breakthrough bleeding, were I would brown spot for about 7 days prior to actually getting my period: I told them all this and they didn't seem to think it relevant. That spotting has not happened since the m/c.

See, now I've written endlessly. Your story is just harrowing and I am so sorry you had to experience it. I want to say I can't imagine such coldness and uncaring from the medical profession, but I can, unfortunately. I appreciate you sharing all that...
Take care of yourself -- Slatka

Slatka,

Thank you so much for you kind words and support. As you know it means so much to have that during our difficult times. Your thoughfullness really brightened my day.

Actually, I do keep a journal of all my "events" from the last m/c to this day. I don't know what will ever come of it, but I do it. It is sometiems hard for me to talk about it, but again I would do anything to help someone else with this journey. If any of my experiences can help someone I would be overjoyed. I hate to see anyone have to go through this and who knows maybe something I might say could help someone.

I am not always strong! I can break down with the best of them and I sure do at times. I think this is only natural. I am a Christian and although sometimes I really wonder why these things happen I try to look at these challenges as "lessons in making us stronger." I can 100% say that everytime something does not go the way I want (which seems very frequent these days/months) after I get over the hurt, anger, sadness and frustration and I can look at it and say "wow, I am stronger and ready for the next day. I wake up every morning and am thankful for a new day, a new day to try to make it better then the last. Sure I backslide and I may have a rough time getting out of bed in the morning, but I get through it just as all of us do.

With my previous m/c's they did not do any testing either. It still hurts and often I really wish I did know why so I would't feel like such a failure. I wish there was something that would be done about the not testing until you have had 3 m/c's. That to me is absurd! I know it all comes down to the insurance, they don't want to pay for it, but what about the Mother and Father, they deserve to the right to try to find answers.

I am so sorry for your experience you went through with you m/c. I feel that a lot of people don't take m/c as seriously as it should be taken. I know we all hate hearing the 'it is natures way" Bull on that, it is not them that is going through this, it is not happening to their bodies. I can completly understand the pain you went through on those terrible days.

Seeing your test results remind me alot of myself. They tested for everything you can imagine. Everything came back normal, so where does that leave you? Wondering why? I have been there done that and still do. I never in a milion years would have thought that I had a hormonal imbalenance. I was always able to get pg before, actually 2 times I wasen't even trying and was on the pill, the 3rd time it was "if it happens, it happens". We were getting married Oct 29, 05 and I found out Oct 27, 05 I was pg. No real noticable signs, something to me to test. For us it was a short lived blessing.

How long had you been trying to conceive before you finally got the bfp? It may just be me, but I think I would really qestion the break though bleeding. Maybe it is nothing, but again is it normal, could something else have caused that hormonally?

From a medical perspective I am not sure if hormones can be changed after a m/c. In many ways I think maybe so. I know since my m/c my hormones are a mess. Now maybe they could have been that way before, but why was it so easy for me to conceive? Now they tell me that without medicine I probably won't be able to conceive because of my low estrodiol in the leutal phase. It is a mystery to me.

If I can make a suggestion, please ask your gyn to test your progesterone and estrodiol on day 23. I know I could be way off and I am not just saying this because of my problem. I never realized how important that test was until my re told me and I am so thankful they did early and we could work on fixing it and have a healthly cycle. I have also read a great deal about hormones and how they are one of the highest causes of infertility. When I found out my problem I asked them how it was possible to have this problem when I always ovulate, they exlained to me that I do ovulate, however it is most likely not quality to conceive because of the hormone problem. From close monitoring of my cycles they have also learned that I am not having an LH surge at the right time. They felt that could also play a part in the problem. I may not be surging until the egg is overmature which would cause a lower rate of conception.

How are your crampy, twingy feelings?

Boy of boy everytime I write I write a book. (Hope you don't mind). I best be going and make some dinner. By the way this weather is horrible!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is so humid I don't want to do a darn thing.

Take care Slatka and thank you again for your support.
Liz

Hi Liz --

Have so much to say, so little time (as is usual for me). And I don't mind reading your "books" -- I enjoy them as they are windows into who you are and how you think and I appreciate that.

As I've said probably elsewhere this morning, my mom is coming down from NJ to go house-hunting with me on this lovely day (weather is gray and humid; mood is gray and stormy. I'm pretty sure af is around the corner. Sometimes I appreciate knowing sooner than the date I'm due; other times, I'd like to hold on to the illusion a bit longer).

I am taking your advice about hormone testing seriously. I just can't imagine what else can be wrong. I put a call into my OB, actually the NP who I like very much. She should be able to help with ordering tests and such and she's the one who I've spent the most time with discussing this whole ttc thing. I don't want to waste any more time, and I guess that's my predominent feeling now, that month after month is wasted time, and it would kill me to know that I could've gotten help to change all that.

We were married June 5, 2004 and had been ttc for about a year before I got my positive mid-Feb. 2006. We did some testing before that -- bloodwork -- and were told the inevitable: just relax and give it time (yeah, if you're 24!). No one has ever given me an explanation for the spotting pre-period, though I brought it to enough people's attention! It wasn't every cycle, but enough to notice. It was old blood, probably from the previous cycle, if that makes sense; the "real" period would start on the regular due date. Anyway, it does not happen anymore.

As of this morning, the low cramps have died down; it's about DAY 7 or 8 past ovulation. But I have sore ankles, which I had last cycle and seem to be a period signaller. Post-m/c, all my premenstrual signs start 8 or 9 days before the period onset, whereas before, only a day or two. Talk about unfair!!!

You must be nervous, especially after hearing about Trina's negative. Not that yours will be the same, of course, but for me, at least, hearing her this morning just brought back all the pain of testing and finding a negative that I have every month. It dashes my hope. So you need to reinvigorate it!!! Not too much pressure, right? There have been a few times when I just didn't want to test -- didn't want to face it. I would be literally shaking. But you can't ignore it. Do you go in for a blood test? Or are you going to do the poas first?

Kepe writing, for us and for yourself. Especially this weekend camping...before I was born, my mother started a book for me, about her journey with me (she started when I was 7 months along and she didn't even know what I was yet) until I was 18 and going to college. Now, she didn't/couldn't write everyday, but what a tremendous gift! She gave me the journal sometime during my college years to keep and read -- I vowed to do that for my child. In fact, and I'm crying now, I had just purchased a journal at Borders to begin writing when I had my m/c.

Take care and hang in there. Just breathe.
Slatka

Slatka,

I am so sorry to hear you are not having a good day today. hugs to you.

I strongly believe that we convience ourselves of the neg result or af's arrival to protect ourselves. For me I usually start with the "I know its neg, I just feel it, I just want af to come so we can start over." I am sure you know the drill. It is our nature to "protect" ourselves. My heart goes out to you and what you are feeling. I know you are having a tough time today, feeling as if you can't take this ttc with no results one more day. I feel in my heart that you are strong, deep inside you are, you must keep fighting. You know the old saying "good things come to those who wait". Well, I know the waiting really stinks, but I also believe in it. For instance I never thought in a million years I would find the man of my dreams, I had been in several long term serious relationships and none of them ever seemed "right". Needless to say one day an opportunity opened up for me with my now wonderful husband. We had know each other for several years, had many of the same friends and to be honest I had a huge crush on him for a long time. He however was married and to be you never do that. I would never had done anything. One night we were all out with our friends when I asked how his wife was he ended up telling me his wife left him a few months back. Opportunity came knocking and a little while later we were dating, 2 1/2 years later we got married. He is my everything and I can't help but feel if I would not have been patient and waited I would have never had the chance to have the best husband and marriage. I know that waiting for a good thing to happen is not easy at the time, I am going through the same thing, we have to find the inner strength to hold onto hope. If we have no hope, we have do not have anything. Hope and dreams make us stronger as individuals.

I am so glad you called your np about blood work. I know what you mean about not wasting time. Time is not standing still and I often feel like everyday I am losing another day to be a mother. I worry alot about age, as I know you do. I am 32 and you are 33, that is really not old, but yet like you said you feel ancient in the ttc world. I feel the same way!!!!

It is truly amazing how m/c can change our bodies. I didn't have much difficulty getting reg again, things are just somewhat different. I do feel that some of mine is due to the meds I am on.

I am very nervous about Monday. I am thinking I might do a hpt on Sunday or Monday morning just so I can prepare myself. There I go again trying to protect myself. I still can honestly say I have no idea which way it will go. At times I find myself saying "its neg", again no reason except protecting myself. Hearing about Trina broke my heart, she is another wonderful women, I hate to see her go through another month of this. You told her its not over till af arrives, well sweetie just remember that! You are a week away from af's anticipated arrival you can still go either way. Try to keep the faith.

That is aweseome that your Mom made a journal for you. I bet that is the most wonderful gift she could have given you. I had the same intentions when I was pg. Actually It was already journaling when I had the m/c. The book killed me to look at so I had to get rid of it. Someday I will be able to share my current journal with daughter or son.

I hope you are having fun with your Mom house hunting today. What an exciting time in your life, I bet you are very excited. Let me know how you make out.

Take care of yourself, hold you head high and stay postive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Liz

Sltaka,

I am headed out for the weekend. I will be back Sunday evening and will check in.

Have a good weekend. I will be thinking about you, hoping you are doing ok.

Liz

Hi Liz, I know you're not here and hope you are roasting marshmellows over the fire or enjoying a cold drink camping, but I thought I'd leave a hello message.

You and your husband's story is wonderful! What a great love story -- I always thought that the more unusual the story, the more long-lasting the love (though this is totally probably not true, I've found that friends with quirky or "we met, couldn't be together, then, after a few years, found each other again" kind of stories seem to have the best relationships, filled with humor and understanding and patience with each other. It's also kind of romantic! I'll have to fill you in on our story at some point. It is needlessly complicated, yet it all hinges on me walking into a pool hall/bar in DC and meeting a guy from Poland....and he's just the first link in the chain that lead me to my husband.

On another note, I had some pink spotting this morning (Saturday, CD26) which then went away. I am about 5 days early for af, but I am convinced she is coming. The cramping, the heavy legs, the backache, the bitchiness -- all there and accounted for. My body has done this once before since the m/c: I have light spotting at least 4-5 days before I am due, it goes away, I hold my breath, then af comes early a day or so later. To the OB, this is no big deal: I just happen to have a shorter cycle. To me, it's confusing. I ovulated, based on the ovulation predictor, on CD17 or 18. I then count 14 days later and arrive at my af due date. How can af arrive in under 14 days post-ovulation?

ANyway, I know my period is coming and I have to face it. Now, good luck to you on Monday: you have enough strength to weather whatever happens. I KNOW that is true. I know it is harder and harder to pick yourself up after every BFN, but you can and do -- and so many women here would be willing to reach down and grab your hand. I pray, though, that we'll be using them to clap in congratulations for you.

Keep me posted. Take care, hope all is well --

Slatka

Hi Slatka -

How was your weekend? Mine was pretty good, except for some bad news today................. af arrived. I guess I will not be needing a beta test this month. It has been an emotionally rough 2 days. Yesterday morning I decided to take a hpt while away. I so badly wanted to see the positive, but unfortunatly I did not. Today af arrived to confirm.

I will write more later, I have a lot of unpacking to do and I can't start crying too bad or it will never get done.

Hope all is well with you, talk to you soon.
Liz

Oh, Liz, I have tears in my eyes right now. I just sat back in my chair and said, oh no, you too? I am spotting light today, but it doesn't fool me: af is here for me as well (early, damn early, I might add). I could try and pretend it isn't for a few more days, but why?

I am glad you checked in -- it must've been hard to log in and write. I appreciate your courage to do that. We all know how badly you wanted that positive, how badly we all want it. How unfairly elusive it is. I had high hopes for you this month -- all that means is that my hopes and support will just have to double for you next month: you'll get any surplus hopes and dreams going into the next cycle.

I've been struggling with trying to figure out what is wrong with my period, why I am spotting so early, then starting. Why I ovulated only 11 days ago, yet am starting my period (isn't is always 14?)...but that's for another time.

I wish I had words to take the pain and sadness away..unfortunately, all I can do is commiserate with you, cry with you. It's not enough, nothing any of us can do will be enough, but I do understand. I've gotten so desperately sad at times I lay in bed and bargain with god, angry and sad. I've dealt with abuse, I've dealt with parents' divorce, I've dealt with awful relationships, I've dealt with anxiety/depression, I've dealt with loneliness, I've dealt with m/c -- please take this burden away...but it has not yet been answered.

Knowing your pain and actually giving you comfort are two different things, I know. Take care of yourself and hang in there,
Slatka

Slatka-

Thank you so much for your kind words and support. God knows I need it, we all need it. It was hard for me to post last night, but then again the whole drive home from Cape May I was thinking that I had to write. I knew you would all be here for me and all of you can 100% relate to the feelings that I am having. My husband is wonderful however he just can not understand my feelings like you guys can. I wish this was not the case, since I wish you would never have to go through this infertility crap. The comfort it gives me to log on and see the thoughtful, supportive messages from you is something that does help with the pain! You know what I am going through.

Anyway, enough about me for now. How are you feeling? I am so sorry to hear of af's possible arrival. Boy this month really is turning into a downer. I know how you are feeling and I am so sorry, remember you are not out until she is here for good. I read somewhere (not sure if it was on this tread) that you are spotting pink. Is that still the case? Some spotting can be normal in pregnancy. I know you are positive she is on her way, you can tell. I too, know when af is arriving by my body. All the signs leading up to it and the extreme disappointment you feel!

This is not sopossed to be this hard. God, I hate it. I just wish that we would not have to go through this. It breaks my heart every month I get the bfn and then when I see how you guys are not having any postive preg. signs it breaks my heart even more. I know we will all be wonderful mothers, so why does it have to be so damn hard on us? It is just not fair.

Change of subject.... How was house hunting? Did you have a nice time with Mom? I saw somewhere here that you are looking in Annapolis. I love Annapolis. It is one of my favorate places. I had never been to Cape May before this weekend and the whole time I kep thinking it reminded me of Annapolis. Needless to say I loved it there too. When we first started dating my husband took to me Annapolis, I fell in love with both the town and him. :) We ate at this restaurant on the water (I think it was a hotel), it was aweseome. We have been there a few times since, not enough for me though. Maybe sometime we will get to come visit you.

You, like me have been though a great deal in our lives. Sometimes I wonder why this has to happen to us, why when we are such good peole do we have to go through this. From the abuse (mine was mainly verbal) to the infertility and everthing in the middle. It is just not fair. Sorry for the negativity, I guess I need a few more days to get my "strong" attitude back!

About your spotting so close to ovulation. I have been thinking about it and wish I had an answer. This is probably a very stupid question, but I will ask anyway. Area you sure you ovulated on day 16 (I think that is what you said)? I was just thinking that maybe your ovulation day is off. Also, have you actually fully started af? If not maybe this is something like that early spotting before af that you had before. I personally have always had af arrival 14 dpo. Even this month on the progesterone which they told me would keep af from coming she arrived 14 dpo. Very strange.

I must run and get some work done.

Take care, Sltaka and again thank you so much for your support. Your support means more then words can say. I will talk to you soon.

Liz

Hi Liz --

I will always be here -- even if (I should say, even when, but I'm a little negative, too, today!) I get pregnant, I can't imagine just dropping out of this forum. We've made too many connections to just take off. If there's anything I've learned, it's that I NEED you all on this journey.

I swing back and forth on the fairness issue. I don't believe that I or any of us deserve this pain, and I do pray for mercy, sometimes to god, sometimes to the universe, sometimes to myself. But then I undercut myself: so why should I, of all people, be answered? When there are far better people, children, who pray out for help in their own despair and are massacred, or left homeless, or are orphaned. If their prayers are not heard, if they are left to die, who/what will answer mine? But then I think (see how this goes round and round in a circle?), what else am I to do? How else am I to cope? Sometimes I feel it is the height of selfishness to pray for oneself while others who are clearly good people, perhaps "better" people pray just as hard and are rejected, slaughtered -- literally -- or hurt. I guess I'm getting a bit philosophical here, but these are questions that have always troubled me, and this whole ttc and m/c experience have really brought them to the forefront. If this is a "test" of me, what am I to learn through the pain?

On to a more cheerful subject...Actually, today, my husband and I are putting in an offer for a little place in Annapolis! We can't afford much, since it is in the city and prices are high, but it is a sweet little place, 3 bedrooms, 2 and a half baths, deck out back, finished basement. Small, but perfect for just the two of us. We're nervous and hope our bid will be accepted. The place is vacant, and has been on the market for a while, so we assume the seller is motivated to get rid of it! You and your husband must come and visit, especially since you all are boating folks. I really like Old town Annapolis -- very charming old sea town (well, "bay" town). We're not in the heart of old town, but a close drive.

If this goes through, the busyness of the next month or twoo should help distract me. I've just got to move on, move forward. Partly inspired by you, I did make an appointment with the fertility center near me (for end of August) -- I feel I am not getting heard by my OB, I feel something is up with my hormones (the CD 23 progesterone came back at a 6.01; in December when I had that same test, same CD, I was 14.4. Based on my research, 6 is very low, particularly since I have a longer cycle 31 days). So, I'm glad I took that step.

Well, based on the ovulation predictor I was using this month, my LH surge began on CD 16 in the afternoon; this means I would ovulate 24-48 hours after I first detect a surge. The LH levels stayed high for CD 17 and 18, then dropped. So I assume I ovulated around CD 17 or 18. And I had always heard/read that your period comes 14 days after ovulation, with little variation (it's the days before that vary the cycle). So I would be due for af CD 31 or 32, right on my usual schedule. Today is CD 28 and nothing is really happening, save for very light spotting (I'm not wearing any sanitary protection, even). Oh, well, this is something to further investigate. Might be hooked into a progesterone prob.

And again, I've gone on. I enjoy talking to you so much -- our exchanges are supportive for me and we've got a lot to share. Take care of yourself and allow yourself some sadness and grumpiness for a few days. That's ok. Talk to you soon -
Slatka

Good morning Slatka -

I hope you are stayig cool. This weather is a real killer. I think today is going to be the last for extremes here in PA. Tomorrow is still hot at 89, atleast the humidity is sopossed to go away.

Congrats on the offer. I am keeping my fingers crossed that your next message (or soon after) will be letting me know your offer was accepted. This is a wonderful adventure and yes you will be busy. My dh and I are beginning building in Aug. so it does help me keep busy. I am constantly busy thinking about something, picking something out or researching. Trust me it does help to have something else to focus on besides ttc.

I am so glad to hear you made an appointment with a fertility center. I kinda got the feeling from your postings that your ob was not "meeting your needs." You need answers and have to get them no matter what it takes. I know money is always an issue, I too have this problem. I try very hard not to think about it because to me a baby is more important. I am trying to have faith that it will all work out and we won't end up in the poor house. haha

I have been told by my clinic that testing your progesterone on day 23 or so will let them know if you ovulated. If your progesterone is over 10 they are safe to say you definatly ovulated. If it is lower than 10 there is a chance of not ovulated or not having a good ovulation. I am still having trouble understanding all of this.... I was always under the impression that you had to ovulate to get your period, however now I guess I was always wrong on that one. ??????????? Very confusing.

I hear what you are saying about fairness. Actually what you are saying really makes me think. You are right what does make us so special to have our prayers answered or our wishes granted. I also agree that it feels selfish to pray for yourself. On the flip side of that one, you must look out for yourself. Yes this cycle can go round and round with thinking. It really can mess with you head. Maybe that is why I am nuts!!!! ha

I read somewhere, (boy this site does get confusing) that you are going to a wedding this weekend. I also know you are not looking forward to it. This has been one of the hardest things for me to overcome. As we approach events I would have been pregnant for or now would have had the baby I get depressed. It is so tough, but again time is the only thing that can heal these wounds and believe it or not it does get better. I lost our baby on Dec. 12 of 2005, Christmas was horrible. My husband tried very hard to make me have a special day and it was wonderful, however the emptiness I felt was overwhelming. It is seemed like every event that came (that was planned) from Dec. to July 5 was awlful for me. The good news is I got through it and I believe I am stronger for it. You too will get though this weekend. Allow yourself some time alone, even if it is only a few min. Atleast you will be able to have your thoughts, heartache, anger, frustration, sadness, and everything else to yourself.

By the way has af reered her ugly head yet? Anymore spotting? You know I have been thinking about your situation since I found out and I am really wondering if you could be pg???? I know you don't think so and who am I to argue with those instincts (I have them too and it drives me nuts when dh says "just wait and see") but again spotting at the beg. of preg could be normal. Oh well I am still not counting you out. :)

You are very right about "needing" out friends here on this site. My husband and I were just talking about it last night, he was telling me how happy he was I have this place and I have met so many wonderful women. I told him I feel so much admiration and love for many of you and like you said I can't imagine just dropping when the bfp happens. I could't do it. I want to be able to share in all of your journeys as you will in mine. It sometimes feel so wierd to feel so close to people you have never met in person, but yet I do. In talking to you I feel like I have know you for years, its just amazing how a journey like this can bring so many people together.

Well, I guess it is time to get some work done. Take care of yourself and stay cool today.

Talk to you soon -
Liz

Hi Liz --

Well, our first offer on the house was not accepted, so we're a little down about it. We're first time buyers so we're not used to the game -- we naively expected them to rush at our bid! Ha, ha. Our realtor told us this happens (and unfortunately, these sellers seem a little rigid, so it's not the best scenario) and we are offering another bid tonight. I feel like, please let something go right for us!!!! We need something to look forward to. Where are you guys building your house? In PA? Have you broken ground yet? Now, that would be exciting, watching the house take shape, getting to be involved with the planning. And it will be a definite distraction, I'm sure -- a good one.

My OB was fine when I was not trying to conceive, and I don't mean to be too harsh about her. But I do feel she is not listening to me, not really hearing me. My own mother is a nurse and knows all about the med. profession (Unfortunately, she's not an OB or RE nurse! That would've helped!) -- she keeps telling me to be assertive, that it is my right to expect to be heard and not dismissed. They seem so set on convincing me I am "normal" that they don't seem to be hearing my other symptoms (the continuous cramping, the spotting, the length of time it is taking for me to conceive); it's like they've already settled what/who I am and I cannot convince them otherwise.

When I talked to the fertility center, immediately I felt better; the intake nurse on the phone said I had a very legitimate reason for coming to them and was sympathetic. I mean, that's all I'm asking for: someone telling me I am not crazy and that we can do something (NOT, "relax" and "just keep trying"!). I remember you saying how your experience in the RE department differed from the OB dept, how much better you felt with them. If something is wrong, then something is wrong -- let's figure it out and try to correct it, is my way of thinking.

I did get af this morning (again, oddly early). You may be right -- I may not have ovulated this month and that's why, perhaps, I am having this spotting/early af. I had heard that for some women it is hard to tell whether they've ovulated or not -- in other words, their non-ovulatory cycle is not wildly different (just like this one is only a few days off, not so many would notice); for other women, they either don't get their period or it is very different in length. I hope to get answers from the doc.; this may change the direction of their care, then, if there is evidence I am not ovulating.

You know how I feel about these family events. I just perhaps let myself believe too much that my pregnancy would continue (silly me!), so I thought ahead about birthdays, holidays, when I would be pregnant and how far along. Well, you clearly know the experience. What a tough CHristmas for you -- I'm glad your husband was so caring (he probably was hurting bad as well, doubly so seeing you in pain).

Thank you for understanding my kind of confusing musing about fairness and prayer -- I thought you would be the one to understand. It's not something I share with a lot of people, and it is not something I totally have figured out yet. These are the thoughts that I have in the middle of the night, when I lay there crying, wondering why this is happening, if not to me, then to my husband who doesn't deserve any of this at all. WHy does he have to be hurt along with me? If god/universe doesn't want to answer my prayers, then do it for him.

Anyway, it is dinner time and the hot stove is making this place 1000 degrees! I'd better go and get stuff together. Thanks again for your support. I may be on tomorrow morning, but certainly I'll be back on the weekend, popping in to say hello and catch up. I'll miss you!

Let's hope some rain comes to cool us off and take the edge off this oppressive heat -- it makes everything seem worse, somehow!

Take care -- Slatka

Hello Slatka -

Well I think the rain might be coming here, atleast it is thundering and the sky is black! Oh, I hate rain but I also hate this humidity, I can take the heat just not the humidity.

Sorry to hear about your offer. You know the old saying if at first you don't suceed try and try again. You just got to keep going back and forth and hopefully one of the offers will be accepted. I guess you can apply that saying to our ttc journey as well. :)

Now last but not least. Please know that my thoughts are with you this weekend. I know how hard it is going to be for you. I am sending you as much positive energy and good thoughts as I can. It is not silly of you to have "planned out" these dates in your head and where you would be in your preg. it is only normal. I did the exact same thing. You are a very strong women (whether you think so or not), you will make it though this weekend and hopefully have a good time. Just remember to allow time for yourself. You deserve it and you should allow it. If you need to cry, cry, if you need to scream, scream. Whatever it takes to make it easier on you do it!

((((((hugs))))))))))

I will talk to you when you get back. I will definatly miss you and our lenghtly posts. Boy we are both very long winded hehe.

Take care and good luck over the weekend and with the bid!

Liz

We have 4 1/2 acres of land in the woods. My dh purchased it back in 98 and he build a 40 x 40 garage with a 1000 sq foot appartment above it. It is very cozy and beautiful. What we are doing is now building our own house on the same land. We designed the house ourselves, went to an architect and had the plans drawn. My husband along with family, friends and a few sub-contractors are building the house. My husband is getting sub-contractors for a couple of the major jobs, for the most part he is doing 95% of the work himself. He is very gifted in that sense, he dosen't do contruction for a living (he is actually an airplane mechanic), but he knows what he is doing. He has learned a great deal from him Dad and Uncle who both built their houses themselve. He built the garage and apt himself and did an awesome job. He is now ready for the real deal of our new house. Its a big job, but I have no doubt he will do a remarkable job. We live outside of Reading in a rural area. We both grew up in the county and well you know we just can't leave. Not to mention his job is here and that is after all what pays for the house. :) I help of course, just not the bread winner.

I am so glad you got an appt. with an re. It makes a remarkable difference when you feel like you are being heard. I love my fertility center. It makes me feel so much better then I did when I was just dealing with ob and gyn. I 100% believe that a fertility center is just more compasionate, they seem to really hear you, they understand or atleast they seem to understand exactly how you feel. It was kinda irronic for me, I had gone to this gyn office when I was younger, switched and then when I got pg went back because my insurance was not accepted at the other one (we got married). After the mc and the 3 months of hell with the gyn dept. they finally transferred me to the fertility center there. When the women called me she told me that if I didn't mind meeting with here she would be able to see me quicker then the Dr. and we could get things rolling. I was more then willing. When I got there and she came out to get us I looked at her and she at me and said do you remember me? Here when I was 19 I had an abnormal pap and they had to do a biopsy, she was my nurse and had been my nurse for years. She is wonderful a women, so very compasionate and understanding. From that moment on I knew I was going to be happy there. She is the infertility coordinator. I am not sure how other offices work, but at mine I talk to her and not the doc on a reg basis. I do know that my doc reviews [b][/b] and gives her the orders on what to do with the patients. I am sure that is pretty normal. It is also reassuring to be to know he knows what is happening with his patients at all times. I was also double reassured when after my appt. with the doc in June the next day my nurse told me that I needed to go for more blood work, when I asked why she said the doc went over your chart with a fine tooth comb, as he does all his patients and realized that 2 of the test that the gyn doc had written for me to have done where not done. She noted them in my chart, but never sent me for the bloodwork. I can not express how much better this makes me feel. I am sure that you will probably experience some of the very same postive feelings once you meet with your re.

Sorry about af. I was really hoping it was not true. That is very strange that she is early, I can see why you would be wondering if you did ovulate this month. I must say I am really curious to see what happens with your re appointment because so much of what you describe relates to me and my issues. I don't know why I just have this feeling that your answers are right around the corner. Of course that dosen't mean that you will be able to get pg immediately, but it is sure a good start. I know it was like a ton of weight lifted off my shoulders when I found out about the hormone problem. Sure it is still worrysome, however atleast I know what I am dealing with to some extent. Explanation helps to ease the soul I like to think.

Please feel free to tell me anything. I find your insights into many things very interesting. You have really made me think about alot of things lately. I am still thinking about the whole fairness thing, you got my mind working overtime. :)