Hey guys. I posted this in one of the other forums, but thought it would be handy for this forum, as well. Read on!________________________
Hello, everyone. It's "Miss Research" here to share some valuable info I've learned about HcG levels that I was desperate to have when I was going through this (and still am!). To know me is to know that I have to have answers to everything, and will stop at nothing to get them! Thank goodness for the Internet and for amazing doctors like Dr. Smith and Dr. Jane.
Okay, onto what I found out. I wanted to know about chances for a baby going to full term with whatever HcG levels our first BFPs gave us after the 2WW, and this is what I found. If Dr. Smith would like to confirm/deny these findings, I'd LOVE to hear his comments and will gladly defer to him. Here goes, and I'll quote the article from Obstetrics & Gynecology 2006:
"OBJECTIVE: To investigate an association between low human gonadotrophin (HcG) levels at the end of the first week of implantation and later clinical miscarriage occurring after ultrasound of confirmation of a live pregnancy.
METHOD [condensed]: Observed 1,054 women who underwent IVF and achieved an ultrasound-confirmed live singleton pregnancy with heartbeat. The HcG level was tested at day 16 post conception (which is day 13p3dt or day 11p5dt). These women were put into 3 groups: those in the low percentile of HcG levels, those in the median percentile of HcG levels, and those in the high percentile. Miscarriage was diagnosed at 8-19 weeks (median = 10 weeks, 4 days).
RESULTS: The overall incidence of miscarriage was 11.1%. The percentiles considered "low" were those who had HcG levels of 157-211 (median = 182) at the stated testing time (above). The percentiles considered "high" were those who had HcG levels of 213-233 at this same time (median = 223). At the low levels, 17% of the women miscarried. At the high levels, only 8% miscarried.
CONCLUSION: Low HcG levels in very early pregnancy are associated with an increased risk of miscarriage occurring after the clinical recognition of pregnancy. The underlying mechanisms of late first-semester and second-trimester miscarriage may have begun as early as the first week of implanation."
So, there you have it. Naturally, my first blood test showed 129 HcG levels at 11dp5dt, so I'm hoping for the best, but expecting the worst.
Hi ZoeCalifornia, This is a very interesting study and thank you for sharing. One thing I wanted to add in your situation, is that it is somewhat more normal for a woman over 40 to have lower HcG's in the beginning...it usually increases fairly rapidly in the first month or so. I think that most of the patients in the study were under 40 years of age, which makes it more significant when their #'s are lower.
Just some thoughts! I am also a researcher wth a Phd. in psych and have a bit of a thing for charts and stuff!
Hey guys. I posted this in one of the other forums, but thought it would be handy for this forum, as well. Read on!________________________
Hello, everyone. It's "Miss Research" here to share some valuable info I've learned about HcG levels that I was desperate to have when I was going through this (and still am!). To know me is to know that I have to have answers to everything, and will stop at nothing to get them! Thank goodness for the Internet and for amazing doctors like Dr. Smith and Dr. Jane.
Okay, onto what I found out. I wanted to know about chances for a baby going to full term with whatever HcG levels our first BFPs gave us after the 2WW, and this is what I found. If Dr. Smith would like to confirm/deny these findings, I'd LOVE to hear his comments and will gladly defer to him. Here goes, and I'll quote the article from Obstetrics & Gynecology 2006:
"OBJECTIVE: To investigate an association between low human gonadotrophin (HcG) levels at the end of the first week of implantation and later clinical miscarriage occurring after ultrasound of confirmation of a live pregnancy.
METHOD [condensed]: Observed 1,054 women who underwent IVF and achieved an ultrasound-confirmed live singleton pregnancy with heartbeat. The HcG level was tested at day 16 post conception (which is day 13p3dt or day 11p5dt). These women were put into 3 groups: those in the low percentile of HcG levels, those in the median percentile of HcG levels, and those in the high percentile. Miscarriage was diagnosed at 8-19 weeks (median = 10 weeks, 4 days).
RESULTS: The overall incidence of miscarriage was 11.1%. The percentiles considered "low" were those who had HcG levels of 157-211 (median = 182) at the stated testing time (above). The percentiles considered "high" were those who had HcG levels of 213-233 at this same time (median = 223). At the low levels, 17% of the women miscarried. At the high levels, only 8% miscarried.
CONCLUSION: Low HcG levels in very early pregnancy are associated with an increased risk of miscarriage occurring after the clinical recognition of pregnancy. The underlying mechanisms of late first-semester and second-trimester miscarriage may have begun as early as the first week of implanation."
So, there you have it. Naturally, my first blood test showed 129 HcG levels at 11dp5dt, so I'm hoping for the best, but expecting the worst.
Oh, thank you for that!! I'm sitting here...3 days after my blood test and not feeling anything. So, naturally, I've already discounted this pregnancy and am mentally moving on to donor eggs. We'll know for sure next Wednesday with ultrasound. Thanks for your well-wishes!
Hey, I so envy your Ph.D. in psych. You are living the life I'd like to have lived (scholastically/career-wise, anyway). A few wrong forks in my early life and I'm stuck with too much knowledge, not enough knowledge, tons of curiousity, and no outlet. Oh, well!
I don't know where you are in your cycle, but your name betells of at least one child. Hopefully that's the case, and good luck in your current cycle!
Hi ZoeCalifornia, I also took forever to finish school. Always working full-time and going to school was such a trial. Sometimes friends/others would say negative things, but I knew what I wanted and just slowly plugged away. It took a total of 14 years from bachelor's degree through doctorate...I funded myself along with student loans. I do know how you feel, I was not the perfect student in the earlier years (particularly highschool!) and had a lot to make up for in college (felt like a big dummy!). Anyhow, I was always inspired by the older people I would hear about getting their degrees (you know like grandmas going back to school, etc...). Most likely, you have a good 40-50 left on this planet....we're still babies
Good luck with everything! Try to stay positive...I think your #'s are so much better than many that I have seen that wind up in viable pregnancies. I will remember you in my prayer list! Judea
Great sharing of the journal's research ZoeCalifornia. I found it very helpful. Separately, above is a link that I found enlightening in benchmarking ultrasound data. It's a tad bit loaded with medical jargon, but I largely get it.
I'm rougly in the same boat as you, 43, own eggs, BFP, beta of 61 on 2/2 and then beta of 161 on 2/5.
Had ultrasound on 2/16 as well as beta of 3531. Prognosis is not so hot via ultrasound, but WAITING yet another week for repeat. Hence my dig for infos and found the link above to share.
DH is in Iraq, but have a good supportive group of girlfriends (but they don't go through IVF), so I'm blessed in that regard. It's another tough wait after going through the 2WW already. I'm focusing on the positive, but braced for the hard reality of a blighted ovum conclusion.
That is the BEST site I've seen YET! Thank you, Jane! And thank you for your great story! Looks like we're both in the same boat. I go in for 5 week U/S this Wednesday, and your site has given me the EXACT knowledge I was looking for. I had a picture in my head, but not a "real photo" like this shows.
Okay, so your 6-week U/S didn't look so hot.... can you explain (if you're comfortable with it, that is). My last cycle was also BFP, but HcG was only 41, and 6-week ultrasound revealed way-too-small sac with no yolk. Dr. said "Sorry, no go. Go off progesterone and you'll miscarry." So, I wonder what a "not-so-hot" ultrasound looks like?
Will you go donor eggs if this doesn't work, or will you continue with your own eggs? I am apparently a great responder, but just have old, worn-out eggs. *sigh* I will definitely be going donor eggs next time, as soon as we can (if this one is also a "no go.")
Hello Zoe: thanks for the bounceback-glad you liked that link-it was crammed with good infos, I thought and took out a bunch of the mystery.
My prognosis is poor here given beta of 3531 on 2/16 from start of beta 61 on 2/2. It should have been 7808, so I'm at roughly 50% and my doc looks for 66% minimum. Also the embryonic sac is only 50% in diameter of 8mm when 15 mm is considered the size for this point of the pregnancy (weeks since "conception"). My doc wanted to give it one more week to see if there was any change since the beta did go UP from 490 (on 2/9) to 3531 on 2/16. They watch for the trend despite the poor numbers. However, I feel HORRIBLE, so I am not optomistic. I have all the symptoms of my period coming on (back pain), but nothing is happening.....
So to answer your question, yes, I am going donor egg, in fact I am on the waiting list since Nov. I decided to do this natural cycle while I was waiting. I might even do one more natural cycle while I further wait if I can stand the psychological things....I'm not into giving up that easily. I was prego last winter too. There the fetus didn't make it after week 8. It's been tough but sometimes miracles do happen. All the best baby dust wishes!
Hello Zoe: thanks for the bounceback-glad you liked that link-it was crammed with good infos, I thought and took out a bunch of the mystery.
My prognosis is poor here given beta of 3531 on 2/16 from start of beta 61 on 2/2. It should have been 7808, so I'm at roughly 50% and my doc looks for 66% minimum. Also the embryonic sac is only 50% in diameter of 8mm when 15 mm is considered the size for this point of the pregnancy (weeks since "conception"). My doc wanted to give it one more week to see if there was any change since the beta did go UP from 490 (on 2/9) to 3531 on 2/16. They watch for the trend despite the poor numbers. However, I feel HORRIBLE, so I am not optomistic. I have all the symptoms of my period coming on (back pain), but nothing is happening.....
So to answer your question, yes, I am going donor egg, in fact I am on the waiting list since Nov. I decided to do this natural cycle while I was waiting. I might even do one more natural cycle while I further wait if I can stand the psychological things....I'm not into giving up that easily. I was prego last winter too. There the fetus didn't make it after week 8. It's been tough but sometimes miracles do happen. All the best baby dust wishes!
Zoe, I need some help!! Ovulation has been confirm on my chart but my temps are still low and they have not rise up yet, why can this be happneing? Do you have any idea or suggestions?
WELL, guarded good news in development....I went to my RE y-day given the continuing horrible back pains....turns out that the yolk showed up and the sac grew considerably. He was a bit more optimistic now that the yolk is now clearly visible and a perfect moon inside the sac. RE was very pessimistic Friday. He told me to rest as much as possible-which I did do. BORING!
Next 2 miracles are a fetal pole and heartbeat. I'm still really behind where I should be. The beta went up to 10,700 from 3531 only 4 days prior. Still NOT doubling, so that's troublesome. But there's a positive trend. My RE said it's more important what's visible on the U/S than the beta numbers per se....So I go back next Tuesday. Still no resolution to my back pain as I've been very very sporty (training for triathlons) until 3 months ago when i stopped all sports to "rest" my blood flow to create a nice home for the embie implant. THAT WORKED!
SO HANG IN THERE!!! Your U/S may surprise you positively!! All the very best of baby dust and well wishes! Jane
Oh, Jane!!! That's such good news!! It's really something to expect the absolutely worst and then get hit with suchunexpected great news! That's how I felt when I had HcG of 129. I was sure they were going to say "45" or something low. Keep doing what you're doing! I, too, and am avid work-outer and a runner -- I used to work out 3 solid hours a day, and for the past 30 years I have ran about 15 miles a day... so it was advised to me to cease ALL forms of exercise and I did and am jonesing for some activity, but know it's for the best. Keep it up! It's not going to be that long, in retrospect!
My news bad. In fact, the U/S showed nothing. So, we're off the meds and onto looking for a donor. Funny, we're just ready to get on with it, you know? Enough of this gambling with my old eggs. We do have male factor, but it shouldn't that much of a factor, since we did ICSI.
Lili, I wish I knew more about ovulation levels and such.... all's I know is to rely on the ovulation kits. They are 100% reliable. Right around day 12 or so (if your cycle is 28-30 days), you pee on a stick every day until you see the positive sign on the stick. That means you'll ovulate within 24-48 hours, so start having "relations" like bunnies!! I have been told by many friends and doctors to forget the temperature rise chart, it's so unreliable. In fact, going by temperature chart alone, my best friend was infertile for 1.5 years. Then, she peed on an ovulation stick and got pregnant first try.
Oh Zoe....I am so so sorry and empathize with you....so sad.....that really is awful.....my heart goes out to you.... I was there last winter too.
WOW-you really did sports! Awesome!! I just swam (well, one day swim again) a good deal and ran a bunch and biked on sunny nice days....(poor biker here). Now I am just flat on my back as much as possible until next Tuesday....I am keeping busy as possible with my computer work and sofa based team meetings (meaning I call into the meetings).....really makes me appreciate my previous excellent health.
GREAT to hear your onward search for a donor and positive motion. That's really encouraging! Again, my heartfelt thoughts to you and your DH. All the very best. Jane
Oh Zoe....I am so so sorry and empathize with you....so sad.....that really is awful.....my heart goes out to you.... I was there last winter too.
WOW-you really did sports! Awesome!! I just swam (well, one day swim again) a good deal and ran a bunch and biked on sunny nice days....(poor biker here). Now I am just flat on my back as much as possible until next Tuesday....I am keeping busy as possible with my computer work and sofa based team meetings (meaning I call into the meetings).....really makes me appreciate my previous excellent health.
GREAT to hear your onward search for a donor and positive motion. That's really encouraging! Again, my heartfelt thoughts to you and your DH. All the very best. Jane
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